Tyrak Reworked

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:28 pm

Vaerun wrote:: Skeletal maceman? appears to not have a corpse line with a corresponding entry in the features/corpses folder. Checking the script, the script calls for a corpse on any damage that is not an explosion.

In regards to aimtolerance, the smaller the number the more accurate and more time the unit takes to fire.

Good to see you, sir!

So providing a suitable corpse 3do will (hopefully) fix the situation? Still doesn't quite explain why the game crashes when an enemy building is destroyed.

Smaller aim tolerance is more accurate? I'll be damned...

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:21 pm

The fireatwillrandom = 1; command goes in the main unit info section. Firedemons and stonegiants sometimes hesitate to attack, so adding this line fixes the issue.

Posts : 103 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2008-08-09

Bardan wrote:: Smaller aim tolerance is more accurate? I'll be damned...

More accurate with Ballistic type weapons; Guided and Line of Sight not so sure. However, they use aimtolerance so I am assuming aimtolerance also affects targeting speed as the higher the number, the faster a unit can get a shot off without that hesitation and vice versa. Sage is right about the fireatwillrandom line as that does help with hesitation as well.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:28 am

Interesting. Quick question, then, as I have never considered the difference. Ballistic is an object propelled at the target (cannonball, arrow, etc), guided is a homing projectile, but what is line of sight? Would that include things like lightning or regular fireballs?

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:30 pm

What is difference between line of sight and ballistic ? (I mean in physic game etc)

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:17 pm

Cannoneers and archers would be considered ballistic units. The weapon simply leaves the unit until it hits the opponent; there is no connection with the host. On the other hand, a line of sight weapon does have a connection with the host by filling that gap between the host and the opponent. A lighting or fire breath attack would be a good example. I think that any weapon with an emit time would be considered a line of sight attack. And if you are wondering about "guided" weapons, an example of this would be Kirenna's bubble or Lokken's fireball; their attacks follow their opponents no matter where they are.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:16 pm

So I went to begin making all of the x_frozen and x_stone .3dos for Tyrak units, when I realized I didn't know which texture to use. Well, to find out, I went to load up an existing unit's frozen/stone 3dos for reference. Imagine my surprise, however, when I can't FIND any of them. So I'm a little confused. Where are they kept?

Posts : 103 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2008-08-09

Lol, you do not need frozen or stoned 3dos. The game applies a gaf/taf effect of stone or frozen to the base model depending on the stoned/frozen tdf.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:53 pm

I was beginning to wonder. So do I simply indicate, as in the fbi for the Aramon Broadsword, the following?

frozen = arabroad_frozen;
...
stone = arabroad_stone;

And that be it?

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:20 pm

I'm wondering that too since there are stone and frozen files for each unit under features/ all worlds.

Posts : 103 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2008-08-09

Regarding Ballistic weapons, they are affected by gravity in the game whereas Line of Sight not at all and Guided somewhat affected.

And frozen and stoned features, that's all that it takes. So, you can make some units immune to those features by not putting those lines in the fbi and so on.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:30 pm

That makes so much \"****\" sense, and my life easier.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:16 pm

You know, I've been trying to figure out the mana cost formula Cavedog used.

Surely, they had to have at least some basic rubric for it, right?

For example, for any speed faster than velocity of 1, it costs 10 mana per .1 velocity.
Or perhaps, 1 mana per 1 damage (either inflicted or maxdamage).

Just curious, but half of it makes no \"****\" sense. Has anyone figured this sort of thing out?

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:16 pm

About mana cost, comparing to anything
they just make it to "strongest/usefull" unit,
anyway it's the easiest to compare cost mana with health.
(from my brain without looking on stats) (crusade balance 3.0b)
here is list, its might be usefull during making new races specially if they are gonna be "compare" to original ones)

Spoiler:

1 mana give around 40-80 health to gate (somepeople consider this unit as mistake)
1 mana give around 20 health for zombie (its healthy type unit, pusher, it don't have almost usefull damage etc, its just push/healthy unit)
1 give 10-15 health for warrior/troll, other type low tier1 unit melee (they are push, and atack unit, mainly slow or very slow)
1 give 5-10 to stronger melee units (knights barbarians,crusaders,jungle orc,blade demons)

1 give 3-8 health to tier1 archers
1 give 0,5-2 to long range artilery units (fire demon, stone giant, cannoner, catapults,rino)
1 give 1-3 health to ?long range archers? (mage archer, rictus xD, skeleton archer, shock trooper)

1 give 10 health to cabal/barrack 1tier factory (zhon ofc have other rules)
1 give ≈5 health to tier2 factory (i mean only abbyss here*)
1 give ≈3 health to tier3 factory (temple, citadel,keep) (zhon ofc its other type due to +movement)
1 give 2-3 health to light towers (watch tower, death totem) (+they got good damage category against low tier unit, so "virtually" "they got x2-x4 more health against them"
1 give ≈3 health to heavy towers
1 give 0,2-0,6 for weird type buildings(units xD) (mortars, trebs, mirrors)
1 give ≈0,8 to holy dragon, juggernaut
1 give ≈0,3 to GOD

how about units which are hard to definie to specific category (fire spout, amazon knight), in this unit you can compare to others
(fire spout can be considered as something between (in that race) blade demon, and fire demon(LOL) so its need to have more health than fire demon, and less than blade demon), same with amazon knight (musketeer, crusader LOL)
how about very weird type units(weather witch, fire mage, all tier4 builders, assasin,dirgible) the best is just test and give proper health to "use of unit" (assasin need to be 1-3 hits by any unit)(weather witch due to big power need also be very low health unit to price, etc

Anyway about health cavedog change(from 1.0 to 3.0CB) really much in zhon builders, long range artilerry units (they get higher price or lower health or some other thing), and some others.

Also there are ?rules? which appear in 5th cavedog races :
tier1 units don't cost more than something 1500 (ara, veruna catapults)

the bigger tier, the worse health to mana relations,

in higher tier there are no any available lower cost unit compared to lower tier, (ex. barbarian its more expensive than swordsman etc, there might be considered exceptions, but usually those units have other uses (ex.skeleton archer have lower price than black knight, but black knight its fast unit which can little annoy monarch, or other units, skeleton archer its classic archer which require full protection(black knight can run) against everything which come close))(but really black knights are just need to be units against creon that's they're the most often use for)

tier1 units are weak against light towers,(ok creon tower have shitty damagecategory(mechanical not fort), so it can be easly destroyed by tier1 units)

*only taros and zhon have tier2 "in same meaning as" tier1 and tier3
but zhon have other type factory, (but anyway beast tamer make only some special forces units, i mean there are no any frontline units (ok gryphons and kraken might be considered as that ones))
aramon don't have any tier2 factory
veruna and creon have shipyards, which is just other "type" (tiership xD) (i can't compare abbyss to sea fort or navy yard)

{don't understand this literally}
so anyway in every race(expect taros) tier2 is "other special tier"
in every race tier3 is something "as upgraded" tier1
{/d u t l}

Spoiler:

btw i quess they didn't use any formula, they just like weird numbers, which can annoy somebody, or fascinate others (why they didn't round mana cost to every 5 dunno)

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:26 pm

See, part of the reason I expected some sort of crude formula was because of the unrounded numbers...

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:29 pm

[UNITINFO]
{
bankscale = 1.75;
bloodcolor1 = 160 35 0;
bloodcolor2 = 170 40 0;
bloodcolor3 = 180 30 5;
bodytype = wood;
buildangle = 4096;
buildcost = 11194;
buildtime = 675;
canattack = 1;
canguard = 1;
canstop = 1;
cantbecaptured = 1;
cantbefrozen = 1;
cantbestoned = 1;
category = ARA BALLISTIC ATTACK;
copyright = Copyright 1999 Humongous Entertainment. All rights reserved.;
corpse = aratre_dead;
damagecategory = siege;
defaultmissiontype = guard_nomove;
description = Aramon;
experiencepoints = 61;
footprintx = 7;
footprintz = 7;
healtime = 1.40625;
maxdamage = 2975;
maxslope = 15;
maxwaterdepth = 0;
name = Trebuchet;
notargetcategory = FLY;
objectname = ARATRE;
pitchscale = 1.5;
shadowgaf = shadows;
shootme = 1;
side = ARA;
sightdistance = 200;
soundcategory = ARATRE;
soundclass = ARATRE;
standingunitorder = 1;
stone = aratre_stone;
tedclass = Aramon;
unitname = ARATRE;
unitnumber = 41;
version = 1;
yardmap = o;
}

[WEAPON1]
{
areaofeffect = 100;
damagetype = explosion;
edgeeffectiveness = 0.1;
explosionclass = large dust puff;
gravityadjustment = 4.2;
minrange = 500;
name = Cannon;
noairweapon = 1;
range = 2700;
reloadtime = 7;
shadowart = weaponshad02;
shadowgaf = shadows;
soundhitclass = rock;
type = Ballistic;
waterexplosionclass = large water explosion;
weaponart = cannbmed;
weaponvelocity = 1150;

[DAMAGE]
{
default = 2001;
}
}

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:47 pm

weaponrange = 2700
minrange = 500
reloadtime = 7
weapondamage = 2001
maxdamage = 2975
buildcost = 11194

These, I find, are the major elements.

range + mdamage + wdamage - minrange = 7176* 1.7 (reload) = 12199

That's just 1005 more than the recorded buildcost. So I might be onto something...

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:24 pm

don't try find something which not exists xD

without crusade balance firedemon cost 1189
with 1889, they just needed to nerf firedemon, so they add his price,

Edit same with stone giant 2951 price without CB, 3951 with CB, (but in stone giant they reduce also health, (10310 to 7310 with CB, and change some other stats)

stats for fire demon

Crusade ON

Spoiler:

Crusade off (campaign, original stats)

Spoiler:

Posts : 219 Reputation : 2 Join date : 2013-02-24 Age : 29

On My Way also with CB off any taros player can just mass exocutioners with out even haven to use T2 or T3i mean i used exe against a group of knights with CB off only lost 4 exe while the person i was playing against lost all his knights about 15 knights

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:57 pm

@Malin, that doesn't argue against there being no formula, it simply points to the possibility and even likelihood of two formulas. After all, the units of OTAK were made prior to the advent of Creon. With the introduction of Iron Plague units, there was a desire to make the expansion campaign a sort of "harder" or more veteran campaign (TA expansions do the same), but these same strengths made the multiplayer impossible. Therefore, two formulas were required - one for more single-player viability, and one for multiplayer options that made the experience even more balanced for each player to have the same relative chance in competitions.

As a rule, I play without CB, thus my experiences might be a tad flawed. I will have to check CB and might therefore alter my opinions. Though, I might mention, the only difference in those stats other than cost is healtime. This might be a design for the player to put more stock in certain units based on their strengths in multiplayer, as opposed to simply relying on a numbers rush. After all, I know I would prefer a handful of Fire Demons in multiplayer over a small horde of executioners... This is not the case in single player.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:08 am

yea CB is projected for balance game (ex. before 1 stone giant almost solo 2 jungle orcs(how long range unit can "almost*" solo same price melee units, range units should always easly die in any solo situation)

Spoiler:

ahh you should play something multiplayer to see also second world of TA:K (not only campaign skirmish one) (you probably would see something "new" uses for units)

i think(no one can proof that its true or not) that cavedog just give cost around for every units, and then they think hmm 354 looks more sexy for troll than 350 or 355

maybe without CB there was some formula (some units were totally pathetic(jungle orc), other too strong(stone giant, fire demon)
other units are totally useless the best ex. mana ampiler(on big sacred stone) give bonus +1 income to cost 467,6 mana, mechanic give +1 income to cost 355

but for sure in CB there is no any formula, they just add/subtract nice amount of mana,
firedemon get higher price 700 mana, stone giant 1000,
drake get lower 500 mana, assasin 1000,
ok in divine lodestone they make it more creative

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:36 pm

As for the stone giant, you cant look at him as a regular ranged unit, like a crossbowman or amazon knight. He is essentially a defensive structure for Zhon, albeit a (very slow) moveable one. As with any defensive 'structure,' he is not meant to be used solo but with some minor support. After all, you wouldn't put an Aramon Stronghold out in the middle of nowhere by itself.

But I see your point, you might be right in that there is no CrusadesBalance formula. I'll have to check it out more in-depth after school.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:44 pm

yea but i mention more about how overpowered is stonegiant without CB, that he can even solo melee (same cost) units which shouldn't happen

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Ah, I suppose so. He could definitely trounce enemy fortifications if protected and at maximum LoS.

Subject: Re: Tyrak Reworked Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:32 pm

There is something definitely wrong with the Undead Maceman; otherwise known as the Taros 3rd party 'TARSKELW' - which apparently was conscripted into the first rendition of Tyrak by the original author.

Just now, I was playing as Taros testing him there, and had three Cabals churning him out to the enemy Aramon base. They successfuly destroyed numerous buildings without crashing the game, died by catapult and Meteor explosions, and finally only crashed the game when they ganged up on and killed Elsin.

Da'fuq? I'm not seeing how adding a corpse will fix this issue, as it doesn't seem to be with them dying, but with them destroying their targets somehow. Vaerun, you have any ideas? Sage?