- Joker wrote:
- "strategy : Long-term action plan for achieving a goal"
Sure it's very strategic to send builder and list things to do, it's more instinctively than strategic, and this on all cd/dc maps and even in 3rd maps, but the difference is that you can use alot of differents strategy way on 3rd maps than cd/dc maps
So just show me where im missing what strategy means, if you talk about me, im lazy to read what i wrote, you used to quote \"****\" you ! lol
I'm bored so I'm bumping this old thread because it seems like TAK never progressed beyond the grouped vs spread debate. You guys hardly ever have any new posts to discuss, so here ya go.
Few things in this thread that make no sense to me:
1) mon fighting being more frequent/severe/frantic on grouped...
this makes me think some of you have never played spread at a high level or that the level of people that play spread at a high level went way down. Spread MUST be more taxing on offensive mon play because the mana is often so scarce and is DEFINITELY so important to have that you must attack it. Because in group you know you will have the same mana as your opponent, your monarchs role is only to go to the choke point, make gates(mon fight to defend gates) and wave incoming units.
- In spread mana maps you have the option to go to a choke point and gate. Go to a likely enemy expansion point and kill the builders/mana, go to your likely expansion point to keep enemy from killing it with their mon etc, just go to high traffic areas to get an advantage, go straight to their start location and pimp like a nub and hope u dont die... so many more options on TOP of the options that are in grouped mana maps.
- good spread mana players never played safe with a monarch because they thought it would die and they'd lose 5k mana. If they did that, they lost already. You can't suicide your monarch, but if you keep it in base and not offensively doing something you suck at spread.
2). Grouped mana has more strategies/units/ all units being used.... what?
This also doesn't make any sense to me. Grouped mana maps have all of your mana in the back of your base, creating a buffer and a choke point that you can then build a gate and defense in front of. The enemy wont attack anywhere else because--- you will never be there. He has to come head on. This means that long range + gates + defense rule the day. Because of this many melee units are WRECKED before they can do anything.
Drops aren't even more strategic in grouped mana. Sure if I can get a witch drop on your grouped mana and take it out it looks super awesome--- but that is so easy to defend against in grouped compared to spread. With the need to spread your base out all across the map, good luck keeping up with simultaneous witch drops all around the map taking out structures. Did I catch your t3 building gg?
Making the choice to drop in spread mana is a risky maneuver. It is highly rewarding if successful, if you just die you basically lose because you wasted so much mana and time. On a 3rd party map--- it is not costly at all.
Ideas in the variety in strategies that do not exist on grouped mana because they lose their effectiveness from their being only 1 focal point:
-2 dirigible harass, take out non protected watch towers, non protected enclaves, wrecks mana
- quick couple of iron beaks to devastate expansion mana and non protected t1 buildings or non protected
- harpy rush to expansion locations to grab wandering builders--- shifts the mana balance, builder balance, unit production balance.
-Orc drops are DEVASTATING on spread mana because you cannot defend it easily. aco, mind mage, harpy in grouped mana and you're decently safe because you know where he has to go. In spread mana --- it is too expensive and impossible to get enough protection up around your spread out bases.
-Offensive towering. I can steal a section of the map with a well placed tower.... i dont mean tower crawling, and i dont mean mass flying builders.
-Real mon pimping
-Mon hunting (newb strategy, get out of jail strategy, risky strategy (on spread it requires that it be successful or you lose because of the investment in units that arent very good at anything else that early in the game). On grouped its SO easy to defend against and if you lose the monarch your mana isn't devastated).
-setting up satellite bases and hiding bases (not even possible on most grouped becaause there is nowhere to build)
-Theres many more that I can't think of right now
3). Grouped mana games are fast compared to spread... what?
- once against i think this comes from someone that hasn't played much spread mana or never against people that know how to play spread mana. Spread mana games are often over in 6 minutes. VERY frequently done in under 20. The thing that bothered me most about grouped mana was that I had to invest such a LONG time in a one dimensional battle.
- and the best part is that the length of the battle is sometimes determined by skill and sometimes not. Yes I could beat any average- above average player on ground wars in 10 minutes or less. However, If I was playing a great ground wars player, the game might last 5 minutes, it might last 2 hours. You couldn't predict it. And there is no pride saying ooo I lasted 30 minutes, or I lasted 5 minutes. The cards just fell that way for that game.
4) drops better on grouped--- I already went over this. They are not better. Much easier to defend drops in grouped because u know exactly where its coming--- not in spread. How often do you guys drop executioners?
5). Spread doesnt have strategy but instinct? What?
- once again I think people here are not very good at spread mana at all. Instinct got you by on on the obscure cd/dc maps. If you tried to use instinct to win on maps it was GG you lost. When I played I had every sub-average to popular cd/dc map memorized and a strategy for each one. The maps I didn't have set strategies for were stupid maps that no one played or so large and obscure you only played for shits and giggles.
- you can use the virtually the exact same strategy for every single grouped mana map. You don't even have to alter your build order because all of your mana is right there and its almost always the same amount of LARGE mana stones.
- I had the exact mana locations and sizes memorized for so many maps. Instinct says make mana radiating outward... strategy says skip those stones, they're small. I had the exact mana and timings worked out for so many maps, that allowed me to to build all of the appropriate structures and defense keeping my mana always in the red to grey but never empty. I also had quite a few fall-out plans worked out for when I lost a builder or something got destroyed out of timing. After that, then instinct and adaptability kicked in.
- instinct says I should build a tower where there is traffic coming, my strategy says I'm building a tower over here away from a contact point because im making a mini base over here when it gets found they will focus it...
-instinct says i'll attack him at his base and sort of randomly around where I think he will expand. Strategy says I'm attacking exactly this mana, then this mana then this one etc.
6) Easier communication or 2v2/3v3 etc just ends up with someone getting sandwiched and losing..
-- yes the communication is easier because there isnt much to communicate. you know where you have to attack and you know where you have to build.
- in spread communication is much more important. You have to choose who you will attack, will you focus down 1 guy? will you double mon pimp the same guy--- Will your opponents do that? Now you have to help defend your ally because he's being double mon pimped.
-I'm sandwiched, you have to help me asap or we lose. Response: Ok, i'm zhon i'll drop rush the guy on top of you etc etc.
7) Last, some of you like that base vs base choke point battle treb wars gate wars etc--- spread has that for you as well
there are quite a few maps that turn into gate wars and treb wars, just on a smaller scale and require much more precision and careful thought in where you plan to build.
yeah some races suck \"***\" on spread mana maps 1v1, but so do some race on grouped mana 1v1. Zhon will get wrecked on every single spread mana map vs two great spread mana players assuming you can survive the zhon mon hunt. Creon will get wrecked on a lot of 1v1 too, but you can pull it out on some. 2v2 or XvX, most races work just fine on spread
10) I skipped 9. The best reason why spread mana is amazing is base swaps. Base swaps are such an exciting and frequent occurrence between two skilled spread players. In grouped its nearly impossible to base swap.
This was an epic long post-- but like I said I'm bored. I believe the game was designed around and balanced around spread mana, grouped was brought in as a different flavor that I wasn't a huge fan of, it was a good break sort of like a scripted map in SC2. I believe spread is a much greater test of skill because of the amount of macro/micro/ multi tasking it takes. The amount of varied strategy, and the amount of risk involved in choosing a said strategy, and the amount of strategies that can be very effective for the same map.
Preference is completely up to the player. You may love the play style grouped gives you and you may love that you can tech up virtually risk free. But the points mentioned in this thread on why grouped is superior--- I just do not believe the evidence is there to back those points up. At the end of the day, play the game for the reason that makes it fun to you.
No one is going to rag on people that play WC3 for dota. I just wish people still played spread mana regularly so that the real way TAK was meant to be played was still alive.
Flame on landh-jerk.