Compare: Hunter vs Risen Wolf

So this topic will be to further discuss the benefit of Killing your own hunters to create Risen Wolves. Lets compare, and maybe you can see things eye to eye with me.

HUNTER
[UNITINFO]
{
acceleration = 10;
bloodcolor1 = 160 35 0;
bloodcolor2 = 170 40 0;
bloodcolor3 = 180 30 5;
bmcode = 1;
bodytype = flesh;
brakerate = 10;
buildcost = 311;
buildtime = 115;
canattack = 1;
canguard = 1;
canmove = 1;
canpatrol = 1;
canstop = 1;
category = ZON BALLISTIC ATTACK;
copyright = Copyright 1999 Humongous Entertainment. All rights reserved.;
corpse = zonter_dead;
damagecategory = Tier1;
defaultmissiontype = Standby;
description = Zhon;
experiencepoints = 8;
frozen = zonter_frozen;
healtime = 0.479166667;
maneuverleashlength = 500;
maxdamage = 1254;
maxvelocity = 1.8;
movementclass = GROUND2;
name = Hunter;
objectname = ZONTER;
roadmultiplier = 1.21;
shadowart = shadow03;
shadowgaf = shadows;
shootme = 1;
side = ZON;
sightdistance = 188;
soundcategory = zonter;
soundclass = zonter;
standingunitorder = 1;
stone = zonter_stone;
tedclass = Zhon;
turninplacerate = 2500;
turnrate = 2500;
unitname = zonter;
unitnumber = 188;
upright = 1;
version = 1;
watermultiplier = 0.81;
}

[WEAPON1]
{
aimtolerance = 1024;
model = zonterspear;
name = spear;
range = 422;
reloadtime = 2.9;
soundhitclass = arrow;
type = Ballistic;
veteranlevel = 10;
veteranmodel = zonterspearvet;
waterexplosionclass = small water explosion;
weaponvelocity = 900;

[DAMAGE]
{
default = 270;
fort = 0.25;
factory = 0.25;
stalwart = 0.25;
mechanical = 0.5;
naval = 0.5;
}
}










RISEN WOLF
[UNITINFO]
{
acceleration = 10;
bloodcolor1 = 0 0 0;
bloodcolor2 = 0 0 0;
bloodcolor3 = 0 0 0;
bmcode = 1;
bodytype = flesh;
brakerate = 10;
buildcost = 977;
buildtime = 169;
canattack = 1;
canguard = 1;
canmove = 1;
canpatrol = 1;
canstop = 1;
cantbefrozen = 1;
cantbestoned = 1;
category = ZON MELEE ATTACK;
copyright = Copyright 1999 Humongous Entertainment. All rights reserved.;
damagecategory = Undead;
defaultmissiontype = Standby;
description = Zhon;
experiencepoints = 14;
ghost = 1;
healtime = 0.704167;
maneuverleashlength = 500;
maxdamage = 1407;
maxvelocity = 2.4;
movementclass = GROUND2;
name = Risen Wolf;
noshadow = 1;
objectname = ZONWOLF2;
roadmultiplier = 1.21;
shootme = 1;
side = ZON;
sightdistance = 210;
soundcategory = LIFWOLF;
soundclass = LIFWOLF;
standingunitorder = 2;
tedclass = Zhon;
turninplacerate = 1300;
turnrate = 1200;
unitname = ZONWOLF2;
unitnumber = 190;
upright = 1;
version = 1;
watermultiplier = 0.81;
}

[WEAPON1]
{
areaofeffect = 25;
edgeeffectiveness = 1.0;
name = Bite;
noairweapon = 1;
range = 250;
reloadtime = 2.0;
soundhitclass = sword;
type = Melee;

[DAMAGE]
{
default = 402;
undead = 2.0;
}
}




So What do we see here?


HUNTER
maxdamage = 1254; //health
maxvelocity = 1.8; //speed
name = Hunter;
sightdistance = 188; //radius can see
range = 422; //range of attack
reloadtime = 2.9; //time in between attacks

default = 270; //normal damage
-fort = 0.25; // Modifier -67.5 damage to gates and towers
-factory = 0.25; // Modifier -67.5 damage to buildings
-stalwart = 0.25; // Modifier -67.5 damage to zhon builders and monsters
-mechanical = 0.5; // Modifier -135 damage to catapults/tortoise...etc.
-naval = 0.5; // Modifier -135 damage to ships


RISEN WOLF
maxdamage = 1407;
maxvelocity = 2.4;
sightdistance = 210;
noairweapon = 1; //can not shoot flying units
range = 250;
reloadtime = 2.0;

default = 402;
-undead = 2.0;

Risen Wolf has slightly more health.
Risen Wolf can see slightly further.
Risen Wolf is faster.
Risen Wolf can attack almost 33% faster.
Risen Wolf does almost double damage.
Risen Wolf doesn't do less damage to buildings, and does double its own damage to zombies and other undead.

Hunter has less than double range.
Hunter can attack air.


Personally I think waving your own hunters to resurrect risen wolves is definitely worth it! Each one can be res.d in about 2 seconds. And all you need is one Spirit wolf (buildcost = 1685;)

Bait the monarch with a smaller pack of hunters enough that they wave. Then you combine a pack of hunters with a pack of risen wolves and attack. With Thirsha to make totems to block the monarch escape/Attack.

Keep the wolves on the monarchs heels/ keep a few wolves to the side so they dont get hit by area damage from meteors/bubbles/fireballs etc. Then when your first few wolves die send in the others. Keep blocking with ur totems, and ur hunters to attack from ranged. You're gonna have a pretty dead monarch.

And if any monarch runs faster than your wolves... Reset the game speed. They'll slow down. ;]

dude. SIICCK

just crazy that wolves

This is sooo cool. I tried it and its a great strat!

As far as waving your own hunters, or even just killing your own hunters to then create risen wolves is completely stupid. I love risen wolves, but not from my own units unless they are killed by my opponent. Make a couple wolves and hide them amongst hunters. Always spread hunters out in anticipation of a wave, and have wolves ready. Hunters will die on their own but spread out will take down a number of enemy swordsman/warriors/etc and have wolves to follow up to make risen wolves of both your own dead as well as your enemies dead. You can make a much larger army this way and still have ranged units (hunters) in play. What you're suggesting is just stupid. It's as if you're trying to apply the theory of making a bunch of birds and giving them to your opponent so your dragon can kill them quickly and rise in rank.

The problem is that a dragon actually gains something by doing this. It gains an effective wave. What you're doing simply gains speed. In some situations this might be worthwhile... but it would be really situation specific and almost worthless in general.

Why kill your own units to make a unit only SLIGHTLY better than the unit you killed, when you can use your own units to kill your opponents units and then raise their units to your own command increasing your own army. When any of your units die also ressurect them. Best of both worlds.

Seems like that would be much more practical and actually useful in game situations. What you've suggested is counter productive. You're sacrificing units to make only slightly better units when you could easily have both.

Its worked for me countless times. When I played alot, I always played Zhon, and this has helped me take down Elsins and Kirennas in the first five minutes....

maybe it doesnt work for you, maybe it appears counter productive.

However when I send risen wolves at your "***", before you even have bodies on the ground.... you start to get scared.


bottom line is... it fucking works wonders. always did....

Quote :

It's as if you're trying to apply the theory of making a bunch of birds and giving them to your opponent so your dragon can kill them quickly and rise in rank.

Its nothing like this.....at all.

The most popular strats are not always the best. Good luck on the battlefield.

Looks solid and scary! Spirit wolves can animate corpses into risen wolves apparently faster than any other animator in the game. With a workertime of 1000 and risen wolves low buildtimes/cost, it's almost instantaeous.

personally I'm with Copper on this matter. Absolutely love risen wolves, but I'd never kill my own units for them.

Clay4141: In my opinion, we should never compare a ranged attack unit (Hunter in our situation) with a melee attack unit (Spirit Wolf and Risen Wolf in out situation). Each unit, regardless of cost, has its own use. By relying just in numbers and algorithms we don't do anything if the strategy is ineffective in practice. Use the strategy because you found it effective in real battle, but please don't use it because the Hunter/Rizen Wolf algorithm/statistics tell you that you must. First of all, there are so many circumstances (and not just statistics) that we have to think of in order to win and, secondly, if we turn every single TAK unit into staistics and algorithms we will just kill all the fun and imagination of TAK game! After all, we want to have fun. Also don't forget that Rizen Wolves cannot atttack aerial units, while the Hunters can. On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't create any aerial units at all, it is better to rely on a melee land force. Strategy's success is always depending on the current situation.

Is this Noobhawk not being mean to Clay4141?
I think so.

Bl4ckR4v3N wrote:

Is this Noobhawk not being mean to Clay4141?
I think so.

Dear Bl4ckR4v3N, I used to like and respect Clay, as you do. However Clay has proved a "TAK talker" and not a "TAK player" lately, so I support NOOBHAWK-Troll-Player1-Landherr (Landherr is his original game) on his arguments with Clay and others.
The Total Annihilation: Kingdoms needs new active players, it doesn't need old non-active talkers. That's what I believe.

Arthan.

I'm not picking sides. Just making it apparant that NOOBHAWK wasn't a jerk in this post. It was almost a well thought out post. There is nothing to support, at least in this thread, besides the stratagie being used. That being said, thats not what you are supporting. You're supporting your unbiased decision that you don't like "TAK talkers" ... and because I also do not play anymore, that is what you are indirectly labeling me as. So because of that I feel uncomfortable that you believe I am on Clays side.. which I am not.

Devils Advocate.

I do not like the tone of this post.

I like clay post because he warn us about this usefull possibility spirit wolf offer and many times we forget or just are lazy to micro. Maybe killing our own units no is most smart thing but i confess i use more risen wolf since i read this post.

ok people 2013 and the game keeps getting better

just another thing that was never known/popular before:

click Clean, make a box and ur spirit wolfs will animate risen wolfs automatically (the units that arent animatable will be clean instead of resurrected)

works for dark priest, chief engineer and dark hands as well.

less micro for those units, dark hand is better now. and zhon is stronger now too.

also clays strat of killing hunters might not be so useless on short mana map. especially spread mana. especially with this new thing.

now combine taros with someone else. u can kill other cheap units too like warrior, swordsman, executioner... u can make many lichs this way, ghouls... mana effective. and time effective now that u need less micro to resurrect

2013.

player1 wrote:

click Clean, make a box and ur spirit wolfs will animate risen wolfs automatically (the units that arent animatable will be clean instead of resurrected)

u rly dont know it?

i use many time boxing features (i hate them all btw)
and one time i saw elsin was ressurectin

u told me u never used attack box..............=/

sigh

and its not so effective to box resurrect with elsin cos he repairs the unit. when hes done repairing the other corpses might already disappear. plus if u r resurrecting usually it means ur short on mana so u dont want to repair too much, but rather wait on the units heal

everyone knows about using box to select units. few people ever use attack box. load box. and especially clean box its even less used.

and "i rly didnt know it?". yep, cos it was never popular and no one did it. especially a certain someone who barely had the habit of using attack box..

maybe i should just stop sharing and let people copy me while playing instead. like massing builders, putting them in gs... oh wait, it was known too, its just that people always prefered to do less effective things , because they used to be generous on their opponents...

ya atack box i never use, prefer manually atack hit the nearest units then ?farer?

but i like boxing trees and have flat wide open map

probably no many knows about ressurect boxing due to usually people like trees, and no one use boxing with clearing

good that u mention it anyway, cause no many people use boxing and true not in all possible options (i hate box atack) it is used

BTW
probably also there are big amount of knowledge which i dont know and it totaly obvious

Edit

about gs and mana its sounds as something obvious that give mana but just no one used it cause no one feel that +1 mana can give power, ty that you find this as part of strategy not useless knowledge
(i use only 2 times on single player builder as mana income due to lack of lodestones but never i thought that can be good on multiplayer (due to long profit time))

I always knew the ressurecting box because Ive always used Right Click Interface and its very easy to accidentaly make a box while clicking with right click interface, and because if you can box every type of order, why not box ressurect too?

Spagg wrote:

I always knew the ressurecting box because Ive always used Right Click Interface and its very easy to accidentaly make a box while clicking with right click interface, and because if you can box every type of order, why not box ressurect too?

but its good to say that is possible to box (its obvious but usually many players dont know it
-attack (i knew about box atacking really long time after start playing)
-load (second that i discover)
-cleaning/ressurect (first one i discover on demo age, maybe i discover this even before possibilty of team making LOL)
-selecting units (its in every RTS come on if somebody dont know it :S )

why not unload ;( and guard for "massive guard" LOL


also that what i see on multiplayer that not every knows

zhon builders can infintive builds (right alt+click on build icon > then click on the ground) (this way of construction have some drawbacks, which aren't exists in shift command way, but there u dont need to think about that builder and giving nonstop command)

I knew it (not too much time ago, about 3 months max). But like OMW said, many people didn't know/don't know and never used, and you gave them the answer... ^^'

Nice thing. Not bad. =)

there is no ressurect box. there is clean box that doesnt clean but resurrect if the corpse is animatable. because there is no resurrect hotkey (at least not made public, like ctrl+stop wasnt)

spagg sounds plausible... few people play with right click interface in tak cos left is the default.

btw i have always knew everything about tak, ever since i was a sperm. what happens is that i only remember/speak about it/start using it when some1 says.. dunno why... lol... [/sarcasm]

box for guard is useless. box for unload would be weird cos its a box, you're not exactly pointing which points u want to unload at... im not saying precision would be a problem, clean/atk/load boxs are fairly random... the problem with unload/guard box would be precision. shift is more efficient

well u could make a box for unload/guard, but i think its too complicated and probably there are other commands that need more priority. wouldnt be so useless for unload... for guard it would cos i dont think u can guard more than one unit at the same time... u can shift guard but it only starts guarding the 2nd unit when the 1st die... so if u make a box i dont rly know which unit u r guarding first

ctrl for zhon builders are widely known by online players with more 2 weeks of experience

player1 wrote:

ctrl for zhon builders are widely known by online players with more 2 weeks of experience

but i still see many situation where people use shift, in cases where alt is much better and easier

about guard and unload(ok that one sound the weirdest)

i mean guarding many units in one time (example of imaginated not existing situation) i have trebuchet and i box to guard many buildings then if any of this building is hurted by range units > treb would snipe this automatically
not just one guarded building and quess if shot gona come faster for this or another

about boxing unload i mean that should randomly unload units without they parking (they would go auto stop>fight nearby unit not wasting time to move, and also roc/gs should then auto unload on some random nearby place (not waiting as that second unit park something else)

but both of this option would make too easy trebing/droping

BTW
clean=ressurect
if unit cant be ressurect then it gonna be cleaned, if both cant happen nothing gonna happen (it same command, but have other ground animation but same button on RIGHT menu)

every ressurectable unit can clean which made me idea, that every can ressurect with that "besom icon", i get sure after seing spirit wolf "besom"

clean!=resurrect. symbol is different too, function is different. everything is different. \"****\" i feel like an idiot having to explain this

random unload the problem is precision (already said)

guard the problem is that u cant guard more than one unit at the same time (already said)

but i get what u mean..

btw i always knew ctrl+stop i was just joking when i said i didnt. it was sometime when i pressed ctrl by mistake with stop and noticed that... \"****\" ever since i always used it im so amazing. i always knew it.

player1 wrote:

clean!=resurrect. symbol is different too, function is different. everything is different. \"****\" i feel like an idiot having to explain this

"if unit cant be ressurect then it gonna be cleaned, if both cant happen nothing gonna happen (it same command, but have other ground animation but same button on RIGHT menu)"

and EVERY unit which can ressurect can also clear and have that "besom icon" so in game system it same command (clear area> if unit is ressurectable; yes > ress no > unit is able to clear; yes >clear no >do nothing)

ok everything is different, but still "besom icon" is the same, also in game system ressurect=cleaning (only result other but animation during process; etc are the same)

so i think Cavedog's are lazy (or in hurry which is more common opinion) due to they didnt spread cleaning and ressurect thing enough in "inside engine"

ya they should also give ressurect icon on right menu

Quote :

random unload the problem is precision (already said)

forget it, it just was imagination by me of this process that it work in random way (probably the closed boxed area to tranposrt unit etc, but its only my idea which wont appear in this game, (same as some options for cartographer))

Quote :

guard the problem is that u cant guard more than one unit at the same time (already said)

ya but if that would be possible to guard more than one unit in a while (but it same as above)

Quote :

but i get what u mean..

da fack i should read it before i answer on other part's


Edit
in version 1.0 only elsin and dark priest where able to ressurect (due to lack of spirt, hand and chief), and both of them dont have empty place in RIGHT menu, maybe thats why they didnt spread this but anyway, they should add 1 more for that ressurect options

Edit 2
and its little stupid that spirit wolf, and dark hand can clear